内森的下巴

显示记录

• 交叉性对内森来说意味着什么
• 内森自身的交叉性如何影响他的专业工作
• 以交叉身份在人生经历中导航是什么感觉
• 象征主义在D&I工作中是如何发挥作用的
• 为什么呼吁行为联盟很重要
• 一个质量支持圈是多么的重要
• 为什么利用自己的特权为他人争取利益很重要
• 如果员工能够做真实的自己，他们的满意度如何提高
• 为什么D&I工作可以通过预算和正式的支持结构得到改善
• 企业如何支持员工资源小组

成绩单

内森的下巴

当你需要摆脱的时候，总会有创伤等着你去克服。所以一定要花时间照顾好自己。做一些自私的，看似无聊的事情是可以的，如果这意味着你可以继续战斗一周，一个月，一年。

菲尔·瓦格纳

大家好，这里是威廉玛丽大学梅森商学院。我是菲尔，这里是多样性发挥作用。系好安全带，因为我们已经准备好深入研究真实的人类生活经验，这些经验塑造和指导我们在工作世界中的多样性工作。应该很有趣。朋友们，大家好，欢迎来到多样性发挥作用的新一期节目。今天我们要拆除一个最大的词，我们经常听到在DE&I领域，相交性。我们想谈谈这个词的基本含义以及它是什么样子的。今天和我一起参加对话的是Nathan Chin。Nathan是William & Mary的校友，也是DE&I的变革倡导者。Nathan在Cvent工作了11年，从事产品领导和产品管理工作，最近进入了一个新职位，担任包容、公平和参与的高级经理。 Nathan has had an eye on not only this topic but DE&I change management over the past decade or so. Nathan, it's an honor to have you on our podcast. Thank you for joining us.

内森的下巴

同样，谢谢你邀请我。

菲尔·瓦格纳

那么，内森，这一集。我们真正想做的一件事是将我们一直听到的交叉性这个大概念定位，特别是当它在我们所处的日常世界中发挥作用时。当你听到相交这个词的时候告诉我。你在这方面做了很多工作。这个词对你来说意味着什么?它是如何引起你的共鸣的?

内森的下巴

是的。所以我认为，至少这个术语是关于在哪里。每个人的身份的不同方面的不同的共同经历往往是重叠的，你有共同的经历甚至在某些情况下，你意识到你的一个身份和另一个身份是如何不同的。所以这可能是他们的相似之处，也可能是明显的不同之处，但实际上，只是那些独特的经历，通过成为多个群体的一员而汇聚在一起，无论这些群体是多数群体还是少数群体。

菲尔·瓦格纳

我认为，那些多重的群体从属关系或身份从属关系是关键，在这个播客上，我们总是试着非常小心，不要把任何人标记化，把他们单独挑出来，说，告诉我你的故事。然而，我知道你已经同意来做这件事了。所以即使有这样谨慎的框架，你能告诉我们更多关于你自己的交叉身份，特别是这些身份如何影响你的专业工作吗?

内森的下巴

是的,当然。所以至少对我自己和我的工作身份来说。我有部分亚洲血统。我爸爸是中国人，我妈妈是白种人，但是我爸爸和他的祖父都出生在美国。我们作为亚裔美国人已经有很长一段时间了，几代人以前，然后我是同性恋，大约15岁左右就出柜了，帮助共同创建了我们的LGBTQ+员工资源小组，然后还有一些其他不经常出现的有趣的事情。我总是喜欢称它为多样性的一部分，在多样性的冰山之下。我其实是在海外出生的，直到6岁才第一次来到美国。我最初的经历是，因为我们是一个在国外工作的家庭，我们都有外国文化，主要是亚洲文化，我人生的前18年里有9年是在亚洲度过的，我在日本、韩国、缅甸和新加坡生活过。所以这实际上是一个非常有趣的问题，我认为它提出了很多没有人会想到的工作，因为我们在印度有一个大的办公室，以及几个全球办事处。所以我认为文化敏感性意识在我们的经历中经常被忽视。 If you're raised in a margin of society, but then also understanding kind of some of the challenges that different cultures have and giving it through that lens.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的。那么这些经历是如何影响你与员工互动的呢?我知道我们在线下谈过一些关于你在员工资源小组的工作以及你在Cvent的日常D&I工作以及LGBTQ社区的工作，正确。

内森的下巴

Hmm-mmm。

菲尔·瓦格纳

所以你做了这个工作。这些身份是如何塑造它的?我认为我们在这里想要表达的是，我们为那些想要走出去参与多元化、公平、包容工作但可能不知道诀窍的听众做准备。我们如何利用这些过去的经验或身份元素来指导我们的方法?我们可以从你的经历中学到任何东西。

内森的下巴

是的。首先，我要说的是，这也是我所教授的一门课程我们公司为所有第一次被提升为经理的人提供的课程。我们为他们准备了一个小人物领袖训练营。但我真正领导的课程叫做包容性领导。我首先要向大家强调的一件事是，多样性不仅仅是表面上的东西。如果你认为自己没什么可贡献的，那你就大错特错了。可能是在单亲家庭长大，有不同的文化经历，有不同的道德，伦理价值体系。所以真正重要的是找到对你重要的东西对你的身份重要的东西，然后深入其中，尽可能地把它们展现出来。让这决定你参与其中的原因，或者你有什么观点，当然，不要害怕说出来。我认为另一件真正有帮助的事情是尽可能多地展示你的多样性。 That doesn't mean necessarily need to be antagonistic or aggressive, or every time someone makes a comment jumping up and down in their face. But one of the things I've found over the last few years is that the more I try to be and it's become a buzzword but my authentic self at work, and that's just representing all my communities, representing myself, not censoring and saying my partner, my significant other, but saying, my boyfriend. People really appreciate that even if they aren't necessarily of the same group. I can't count the number of times I've had people reach out to me after the fact and say, hey, I just started. I really appreciate you talking about being out at work. I didn't know if I could bring my partner to the holiday party—little things like that. So even if you're not doing the active work on committees or within HR or trying to drive initiatives, just the very act of being yourself and representing those different parts of you publicly can actually really move the dial as far as making people aware or making them feel like they have a community or are included.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的，我真的很喜欢。我想我们经常和高管们一起工作，他们都很紧张，很难把D&I的敏感和感性的本质集中在一起。好像他们只关心结果和数据。但在一天结束的时候，这真的是关于那些人类的生活经历和简单的人。正确的。活出你真实的经历至少能让我们更多地了解任何组织文化的健康状况，有助于D&I工作。我们已经谈了很多关于不同身份归属的话题，我非常感谢你能分享更多关于你的。我不认为我们经常会花时间坐下来，拆除或弄清楚所有这些身份元素是如何一起工作的。我相信，虽然它们经常一起工作，以增强我们的方法，但有时也会很复杂。我的意思是，我认为我们在这个播客上有时可能有点内疚，但我想知道你的交叉身份元素，我应该说，在多样性和包容性工作中，你是如何定位的。 So I'm thinking about the complexity here of those identity collisions. So, for instance, we're recording this in June 2021. June is Pride Month. That's the month where we really celebrate and recognize the contributions and the obstacles surrounded by the LGBTQ plus community. But June 2021 isn't just Pride Month, right? It exists on the continuum where just a few months ago, in March, there were heinous acts of violence committed against Asian American folks. And just last month, the nation watched as Derek Chauvin went on trial for the murder of George Floyd. There's a lot of different identity-related things playing out in society at large. Can you share a little bit more about what it's like to navigate those identity streams? Like celebrating Pride Month while also recognizing we're not too far removed from heinous acts of violence that really show us this diverse and inclusion picture is a little bit more complicated.

内森的下巴

是的，这是一件很好的事情，我不指出六月节即将到来，这是我的疏忽。我们在几天前录制了这段视频，谢天谢地，今天早些时候，这段视频终于成为了联邦假日。但这很有趣。我认为我能说的最重要的事情是，你必须接受一切。当我们在亚特兰大对亚洲水疗中心发生可怕的枪击事件时，那一周我几乎每次看到新闻都在哭，我必须非常坦率地对同事说，嘿，看，嘿，你今天过得怎么样?我说，我已经哭了三次了，我一定要告诉他们为什么，这样他们就能理解。但有时这很困难，因为我们有一整个月的骄傲活动，我们的员工资源小组，我们把教育课程，我们合作的更有趣的社交活动。但是，就像我们刚刚谈到的，再过几天就是六月节了，也有一些重大的事情发生。我认为只关注自己的群体是很容易的，有时在一段时间内，一个群体可能需要更多的关注，因为很难同时处理所有这些不同的身份。所以你可能要做一点旋转系统因为没有更好的项。 But it's also important to know to find allies in those other groups and know that you working on something doesn't necessarily take away from something else. Like, I really appreciate the Culture, which is our Black Employee resource group. No one has made any comments or suggested, like, hey, maybe we should tone things down to the Pride activities leading up to Juneteenth. While we're both focused on a lot of our individual goals and initiatives, we also want to celebrate the other groups. So we try to cross-promote as much as possible and try to find ways we can bring it all together. A lot of ways that comes out is in the content of the programming around work that we provide. So some things I pushed pretty hard for as far as our Pride Month activities. They've all been on Zoom because we're all working from home these days, but continuing a panel we had last year as well, which is just talking about the LGBTQ minority experience and how that's different when you're just in multiple minority groups as opposed to just one and a lot of things that folks might or might not realize that they have to go through and have to give some credit to my old professors for a lot of these topics that I'm aware of now, but talking about things like passing and contact switching and microaggressions, at least being a multiracial individual are a big one for me because whether it's asking where my dad or my grandfather came from five times, even though they're both born in the US or saying I don't count with the white folks because I'm Asian or I don't count the Asian folks because I'm white. You simultaneously can be part of multiple things but also not belong to anything completely. So a lot of juggling and balancing, but I tend to just kind of go with where my emotions take me at the time. I think there's always something to be upset about with any of these groups, and rightfully so. And you definitely want to push those things, but you need to balance a lot of the kind of anger, frustration, activism with a lot of the celebration and things that make them wonderful. And for every kind of push that I try to make within the company for one of these identities or groups, I try to also balance it with something celebrating those groups or bringing more people in and educating them on something, whether that's just cultural practice or things they might be doing that they're unaware of.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的。我喜欢这对这次对话的贡献，因为我认为这表明了我们的多样性和包容性工作可能带来的一些好处。如果我们愿意投入工作，很多人会翻白眼，说你为这个对话增加了另一个维度，但如果你真的选择深入挖掘，看到其中的细微差别，复杂性和障碍，我们不可能仅仅通过在我们的网站上发布D&I愿景声明就能解决所有问题。但我们不得不忍受一些不适，我认为我们可以倾向于这种不适，并说，好吧，尽管我们是包容的，尽管我们是在唤起一个交叉的视角，这不仅仅是让它成为一个开放的，被所有人广泛接受的经历。我认为这种复杂性带来了一些价值。我个人认为，随着我们的深入挖掘，我们的认知成熟度和对他人的共情自我意识也在增长。这是很好的观点。

内森的下巴

我完全同意。我认为我看到的其中一件事是和很多董事和我一起做志愿工作，因为这无论如何都不是我的全职工作。但我很幸运，有相信它的老板，允许我想花多少时间就花多少时间。就像你说的，我们不能害怕困难的对话。与我交谈过的几乎所有在我们公司工作或自愿参加董事与创业相关活动的人。我可以告诉你，我觉得我很舒服地说，绝大多数人，如果不是所有人，更喜欢一个说我做错了的领导。让我继续和你讨论这个问题。

菲尔·瓦格纳

正确的。

内森的下巴

然后有些人在第一次就努力把它做好，你没有任何进展。我认为，就像你在高处说的，讨论这些问题的代表性是完全可以的。这是我个人的观点，但有时也不要只关注一件坏事，承认它带来的其他好处，因为它永远不会完美。我们需要能够庆祝已经取得的进展，以及有哪些方面需要改进。如果我们害怕这些对话，或者如果我们害怕发布任何东西，除非它是完美的，我们永远不会真正达到目标。进步是渐进的。我们需要说，嘿，太好了。我们做得很好;我们可以做得更好。所以我们在下次处理这个问题的时候迭代一下。 So I have kind of the same frustrations with folks that tear something apart because of one item and don't really kind of focus on the rest of the positives it provides. But similarly, don't think that they should ever be ignored or anyone should ever be censored for calling out the elements that could be improved.

菲尔·瓦格纳

绝对的。这就是创新的故事。就像我们做了一些好事。有些事情我们可以做得更好，我们就顺其自然吧。我认为不要忽视这一点非常重要。我们在播客上和几位嘉宾聊过，每集都有一个主题，那就是D&I工作必然是不自我的工作。如果你有一个脆弱的自我，你就不能做这项工作，因为你总是会以某种方式或错误的方式偏离你的解释。这没什么。这种不舒服，如果你能融入其中，最终会让你感到满足。我应该说，如果你有一个成长的心态，而不是一个被如此脆弱的自我所驱动的心态。 I want to talk a little bit about how identity plays out in the professional world because you've spoken to a few things here, and I think there's something to explore further. So I think we have to also bring up in conversations like these the idea of tokenism, right. So you mentioned doing D&I work, although not as your full-time job, but just sort of being involved. And I assume that that comes because you care about this work. And I think that's why a lot of us do this work. But I think we have to be very careful because tokenism typically plays out because somebody in the organization, albeit well-meaning or with positive intent, seeks to put someone on a stage as a voice of authority simply because of their identity. Right. So you're the black guy. How do you feel about this or like, hey, you're gay? Let's be sure we put you and make you the leader of the D&I committee. And I think that's well-intentioned but can also push folks in spaces that they might not want to engage in or tokenize them. I'm wondering, have you seen that play out in your life? Do you tend to see it play out in one area, like sexuality, more than the other? You mentioned being pinpointed? Where were your father and grandfather from? I'm curious how that tokenism plays out.

内森的下巴

是的，至少在工作上是这样。我想说的是，我的LGBT身份更多的是作为一种象征。但我很早就尝试过的一件事就是深入进去。也有一些事情我说不好。因此，如果我被带去做一些事情，我们去年在应用程序中对我们的语言做了一次审计。所以我们让我们的内容团队进行了检查。幸运的是，我们不像其他公司那样引用主从和代码之类的东西。我们仔细检查并评估了不同单词的词源，是我自己，黑人女性，我们的内容作者之一，然后至少有一两个涉及到的人，我把他们划掉了。但我确实从其他一些关心它的人那里得到了感觉。那时我有点累了。 This is happening last summer-fall. It was like, hey, it's great that we want to change this. Why do I have to be here? Why can't someone else take this up? And that was pretty eye-opening for me, realizing that. I think as long as you're very honest about the fact that you can't speak to all experiences or you aren't necessarily represented that community, that doesn't mean that you can't do good for them. So I realized the other person wasn't talking as much. So I leaned heavily in and was looking up origin of words, giving my opinion, and trying to weigh in, even though a lot of them weren't necessarily words that were scrutiny against parts of my identity. So I think, on the one hand, if you get a seat at the table unless you really just don't want to do any of the work, and that's better for someone else, in which case definitely find someone else to try to pass it off. I think it's important to take that opportunity and try and push some progress or at least point out like, hey, I'm the token person at this table. Why don't we have more? Why can't you all push these initiatives? Do you have to have me sign off on them? You can actually do a lot as an ally or a person outside of the community. There are so many great resources these days. People. You can talk to things through social media that I really don't think it has to be restrained to those groups, and we don't always need to be the final sign-off on any initiative. I think it is important to listen to them when things come up, but progress is progress, and even if it's incremental, I think it's worth sitting there. One thing I do want to call it that's kind of a personal issue I've come into lately that I think also kind of rested somewhat is, well, if you aren't a member of a group, it's important to still, you can push initiatives. It's important to not be a toxic ally either. There are some folks I've encountered where they leave feedback on various events or panels we have. So like last year, we're putting on some panels, and we're working with all-volunteer, no budget, asking employees in the company who's willing to speak on this topic. And the person is very upset that for one of the sessions where we attached some personal speakers outside of the company that were friends of one of our employees, we didn't have anyone of color on the panel. We admittedly we had our minority panel two days later, which was missed by that individual, but they left just this excoriating piece of feedback that was going on about how we were falling short, and we were basically all pushing everything back from a white female and talked about it with some of the other folks in the other groups, and all of us kind of agreed like this is not helpful. This is not something that we see. It's definitely good to stand up, but make sure you're not creating fights where there aren't any, or if you do have things to be upset about or that you want to be pushing, make sure you have something actionable. Just a complaint or saying this is not an I want to see more diversity. I want to see more commitment to diversity. That's kind of hollow. Like you need to have actual action feedback for someone to work on. The things that we talk about is that the people that you see is that the programs and initiatives there are. There's a lot more that goes into it, but I feel like that I've definitely seen more on the rise, just kind of people on a soapbox, but it's ultimately not constructive.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的，我认为，这种表演性的同盟关系真的很难处理，我确实认为它通常来自一个善意的地方，对吗?除了提高人们的意识之外，人们没有什么可做的，但我仍然认为它实际上可以以一种反直觉的方式运行，对吧?它可能对我们不利，因为它造成了进一步的分裂，这让我想到了一个我认为很重要的问题，通过你刚才所说的一切，很明显，人们，特别是少数族裔群体，感受到一种相当重要的情感劳动，他们从事D&I工作，因为你有一种双重体验，肩负着压迫的负担。我认为社会已经告诉我们，它并不像我们希望的那样公平。然后做这项工作往往在情感上也很费力，经历了所有这些，然后经历了水疗中心枪击事件或针对LGBTQ人群的暴力事件，或者只是一些定义了全球D&I对话的事情。要带这么多东西。我很好奇你如何寻求支持，如何寻求治愈，如何寻求社区，尤其是考虑到身份是复杂的。所以你不只是被孤立在一个个人身份口袋里。当你的部分身份和与之相关的社区面临挑战时，你如何寻求支持?这是一个含糊其辞的问题，而且可能措辞不当。

内森的下巴

是的，我认为这对很多人来说都是不同的，但是有你的支持圈绝对是最重要的之一。我会是第一个喜欢在里面睡午觉或周末的人之一。在需要的时候脱离。总会有创伤等着你去克服。所以一定要花时间照顾好自己。做一些自私的，看似无聊的事情是可以的，如果这意味着你可以继续战斗一周，一个月，一年。这本来就是我们正在经历的一种人类经历。所以照顾好自己很重要。对我个人来说，这主要是因为在工作中有一些非常好的亲密朋友，他们要么是非常强大的盟友，要么是这些团体的一部分，有时绝对不是我们的工作体系。我们会发泄一下，嘿，你能相信这个人这么烦人吗? I can't believe that. Get it off my chest, feel much better, sometimes reaching out and educating the person, making sure I say my piece that helps as well, but a lot of it for me tends to be just focusing on things outside of that and really just kind of disengaging for a moment, taking a break, focusing on myself, exercise, meditation. All those are great activities, but I'd also be remiss if I didn't kind of call out one of the that's definitely an issue, but one that's far, far tougher for women and especially women of color in the workplace. I'm very thankful in that while I am member of several minority groups, we're either generally well perceived, or I can pass those majority groups, so I don't have to deal with it as much. But the number of times that female colleagues within my company or elsewhere have told me they get comments like you're being emotional when there really are completely valid things to be infuriated about that you'd be well within your rights to be screaming and throwing things they have to suppress because it's perceived as emotionality, which is weakness or as anger is often the case for black females, which they probably should be pissed about almost everything that's being done. But it's shocking to me to see how much they have to pull themselves back and how much they have to hold back because of those stereotypes and because that's often perceived. So one of the other ways that I really do feel like helps, even if it doesn't necessarily in the moment, is reaching out and trying to be a support for other people that you know are going through those—letting them have that moment to venture, acknowledging the pain and the frustration that they're having to suppress just in order to not be seen as someone that's going through an episode during a day. I think helping others can also be one of the best ways to relieve some of that stress. And I'm lucky that I get a little bit less than some of the other groups, or my expressions are more accepted by those who hear them generally.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的，再一次，为我接下来想去的地方做好准备，内森，但更多地谈论可能不仅仅是传球，而且是特权，广义上讲，对吧。所以并不是你所有的身份元素都背负着边缘化的负担。所以你可能在某些领域有特权。可能是经济特权。这可能是男性的特权。我知道仅仅是特权这个词就会引起一些人的注意。但是身份是复杂的，对吧。可以说，有山有谷。我很好奇你如何利用这些特权空间来帮助那些在那个特定的身份域里可能没有特权的人。

内森的下巴

是的。非常好的问题。拥有多个身份，并且通常属于几个多数群体。

菲尔·瓦格纳

我们应该正确地定义它。

内森的下巴

好点。

菲尔·瓦格纳

在你的日常生活中，逝去对你来说意味着什么?这是怎么回事呢?

内森的下巴

是的。所以对我来说，传递是一种被认为是另一个群体的一员的能力，即使你实际上可能不是。所以，尽管我有一半亚洲血统，但我经常被认为是白人男性，至少在人们知道我姓Chin之前是这样，因为Chin一直都很小。但可以肯定的是，在工作单位或其他地方，有不少人第一次见到我时就认为我是直男，一些女孩问我是不是单身，不幸的是，对他们来说，结果不太好。但这只是一个没有人会假设的假设，或者至少是大多数不同种族的人。但对于我们中一些肤色较浅或多种族的人来说，我们可能会被误认为是另一个种族，从而被视为那个群体的内部人员。这通常是有好处的。但在某些情况下，它可能意味着相反的情况。这可能意味着你最终会经历一些你的实际种族的大多数人不会经历的事情。

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的，它在很多不同的身份域中发挥作用，对吧。所以你可能有

内森的下巴

所有的，真的。

菲尔·瓦格纳

一种看不见的残疾。你内心会有一种身份协商我是不是残疾?我不会以残疾人的身份出现在公众面前。这里面也有很多复杂的内部对话。但不管怎样，我离题了。我们在谈论特权。谢谢你。

内森的下巴

所以特权，我想大多数人都会这么认为。但我总是尝试做的一件事是，当我潜入其中一些团体时，几乎感觉自己像一个双重间谍。但花点时间，站起来，认清自己，指出正在做的错误的事情。它确实会让你成为一个目标，有时这很艰难，有些人可能没有足够安全的空间去做这件事。如果你觉得不安全或者不舒服，那也没关系。但我个人认为，当我身处这些群体中时，为其他人发声是非常重要的，因为我看到了另一个群体的情况，我知道这对其他人来说是多么困难，但如果你不是一个在这些群体之间流动的人，或者你的身份中没有这些不同的部分，我不想说无知，因为他们并没有机会，但他们选择不去做。我的意思是，现在有更多的研究和其他东西来获得这些观点，但这只是没有意识到你不知道它的存在，这是一种特权。我知道有些人听了会不高兴，但我有个很好的朋友其实是在我还在上大学的时候认识他的，就在华盛顿，他是个黑人，有时也会变装。但他和我都听说过在飙车比赛中也有这样的观点，也有这样的观点，表现得像个娘娘气的人，因为在夜里凌晨一点走在街上，被认为是同性恋比被认为是黑人危险得多。如果他背着包，而且穿的衣服很漂亮，那就不要过马路。 And that's a privilege that I can walk up to someone at 02:00 am and not have them clutch their purse or not have them think that I'm going to rob them that some people don't deal with now some might, but 99 out of 100 times that's been my experience. I think we do need to acknowledge the things that we get. There's also been so many things supported by actual data now, like black homeowners and their valuations or the rent or the insurance rates that they're charged. Their homes are valued lower. And then, as soon as you have a white person pretend to own the home, the appraiser gives it a higher value. That's played out time and time again. And if you aren't aware of your privilege, you're not necessarily a bad person for still benefiting from it. But I think it is important for any of us that are aware to try and spread the wealth around a little bit or at least advocate for others and make sure that others are aware of what benefits we get just by being in the majority.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的，对于领导者来说，掌握这些词汇是很重要的。对我来说，这是一个疲惫的论点，因为我们在工作中不谈论特权是一种懒惰的想法。我不同意特权。我不喜欢它，因为它的设计是为了让人们感觉糟糕，我不认为它与好或坏有任何关系。作为领导者，我认为我们有责任掌握词汇来识别你刚刚谈到的那些经历，内森，那个表现得娘娘腔的家伙因为被视为同性恋远比被视为黑人危险得多。那些在周末或晚上的经历。那个员工不会在上班的时候忘记这些权利。他们不会有一个完全独立的工作经历，没有创伤的记忆，也没有那种身份的复杂性的记忆。所以我认为，领导者在做多元化和包容性的工作时，要充分理解这是复杂的，那里发生的事情会伴随着员工的朝九晚五，这是非常重要的。

内森的下巴

是的,当然。在很多情况下，这并不仅仅是因为调整你的个性来改变你表现自己的方式需要花费很大的努力，这可能不仅仅是工作之外的事情。它会影响到你在工作中是谁以及你所表现出来的身份。因此，了解一些人不得不经历的事情以及这些经历如何影响了他们的处境，这就是为什么更重要的是要确保你在工作中有一个安全的空间，让人们觉得他们可以做自己，而不需要伪装任何其他身份或面孔，或者为了他们的安全而夸大某些事情。你想给他们，你真的从人们那里得到了最大的生产力回到了商业角度当他们不带任何东西或者当他们带着整个自己去工作的时候。我知道这方面的研究有很多，我也经常在全国的“出柜日”上发表演讲。我们先说，我认为这是绝对的，每个人的决定永远不会影响其他人。我认为这应该完全取决于每个人。所以我鼓励大家会因为当你没有在工作,压力,你的身体和大脑经过,只是确保你别提同性男友,女友,或伴侣,你不要说你去同性恋俱乐部另一个晚上,或者你做早午餐或拖我甚至可能出现一些最小的或荒谬的原因,但是它的认知负担,这就是与你每一天,当你每天盯着自己8个小时，同时努力工作，努力工作，提高效率时，你真的不会所有的事情都百分之百地投入，我认为这与健康状况恶化和其他很多事情有关。 It would be like if someone told you you couldn't answer to your name for a week, and anytime someone says that you have to ignore it, pay attention the active effort of what it would take to ignore being called your name or other things that are just second nature to how you should be, and you'll start to realize how much active effort it takes for a lot of these folks when they're going through this. So really, creating those spaces for people to be themselves at work does so much and honestly builds a lot of loyalty. I think one of my fondest memories of work was our CTO. I've known he interviewed me from my job in product nine years ago and has always been a great mentor. He's actually the sponsor of our LGBT employee resource group, but I just ended a five-year relationship and was passing in the hallway, and he's always got six meetings at the same time he's probably late for, but he saw me and asked how I was doing, and I just mentioned off-hand, and I was like, oh, it's been a little bit of a rough week. This relationship had just ended, and he just stopped in the hallway, admittedly very late for probably several other far more important things, and said, how are you feeling about that? How are you doing and took a moment to stand there and talk to me in the hallway, told me if I needed any help with work stuff for the next week or two, if there's anything I could do, they could do to help out that they would be happy to, and that's why I've been there ten and a half years now. Yes, another place might have higher pay or some other benefits, but knowing that I have people who care and will create those places for me to be myself and bring any emotion, anything else going on to work so I don't have to hide and suppress it makes me more loyal, makes me more productive because I can take the time to work on those things when I need to I don't need to feel embarrassed about asking for a couple of hours off to not going to say, just go in a corner and cry. But hey, I need the afternoon for some personal time and no one questions. And that's something I'm thankful for. Now that's not necessarily the experience for everyone in my company. So I think that's where it's important then to take the privileges I have and try to push those for others, tell those stories, tell other managers how much that means to someone when they can do those kind of things, and hopefully that all kind of exponential effects and grow the environment.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是啊，也许我只是超级高傲，是个梦想家。但我喜欢的是，它给出了你刚刚谈到的东西给出了一个可操作的清晰框架，说明组织如何以有效的方式进行DEI工作。而不是花170亿美元来改造我们的网站或者雇佣10亿少数族裔，我认为这些都很重要，对吧。但你在这里所说的，我认为，触及了问题的核心，也是最难的部分。但这需要时间来开启不舒服的对话，这些对话不可避免地会让人们走得更近，并建立起社区。但是，如果你正在寻找一个明确的第一步，进一步推进你的DEI工作，停下来，停下来，倾听你的员工和同事。我想你们会发现这些小的对话一点都不小，它们实际上对这项工作有很大的推动作用。

内森的下巴

绝对的。我想说一点，因为我认为在我的公司，一段时间以来我们一直有一颗伟大的心。至少，这一直是我的经历。但在这个领域我们做得不够，幸运的是我们现在有了两位优秀的人力资源主管或者一位全球人力资源主管和一位人才副总裁。今年年初，他们确实做了一些令人惊叹的事情，但这是一个很好的起点，但仅凭这一点还不够。所以我们大部分时间都没有资金或股权。在工作时间之外，我们一直在做一些纯粹的志愿工作。如果你不像我和其他一些人那样幸运，有一个老板说这是对你工作时间的有效利用，这变成了课外活动，这是一件很繁重的事情，你自己做，没有预算，被期望举办教育课程，提高意识或改善情绪，而这基本上是一项完全的志愿工作。我当然鼓掌。我记得是领英(LinkedIn)最近宣布，他们将向员工资源小组的负责人每人支付1万美元的年薪。 Because I'll be honest, it's a separate, full-time job. It's great to think and talk, but if you don't have someone you can delegate a task to, you've got to send out invitations to an event, coordinate speakers, figure out reservations for rooms and timing, or get virtual meetings set up. There's a lot of legwork that goes into it. And honestly, a lot of it can't happen unless you have some of that buy-in, which always starts at the top. You can have as many grassroots movements as you want. If you don't have buy-in from the top, it's really not going to go anywhere. But then you can start to work on those things like creating a better website, getting better recruitment channels out there. And there's really so many different ways to solve some of these issues. You can do a lot of them for low budget. Even little things like, I know in the past I've heard stories that we've had candidates declined to go forward in the interview process because their first three interviewers were white males, and that's not it was. Hey, we need someone from this department to interview who is available. Some people turned it down. We do have relatively diverse staff throughout the company. We've got some areas where we need some improvement, but some are outperforming other tech companies, but that doesn't matter for that one person who went through the interview process and saw three white men interviewing them. So that's an easy free thing that you can do is make sure you've got good interview panels that people are going through. And then that also leads to things like the website and other areas. So yeah, I definitely think emotional conversations and being open, and listening are the foundation, but it doesn't go very far unless you get those additional elements of investment.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的。我必须在这里澄清一下，如果没有预算或正式的支持结构，就不要从事D&I工作。不要一走了之就这么想，因为我认为这也是一个弱点，那就是我们会做一些廉价的努力。我同意对话很重要，对话可以做很多事，但这肯定是不够的。内森，我想知道你能不能跟那些员工资源小组说几句。这是一个宝贵的空间，可以用来支持建立社区，提供反馈。随着公司的发展，我想出了如何更好地进行总监和个人工作的反馈循环。你在这些员工资源小组中有什么经验，它们如何帮助我们?我认为这是我们DEI工具包中的一个工具。

内森的下巴

是的，我认为如果你的公司刚刚开始建立这样的计划或努力，他们会是一个很好的资源，在那里你可以检查我称之为对未来计划的一种健全的检查。比如，嘿，我们正在考虑做这个。你们都想参与吗?我们能做什么?这听起来像是个好主意吗?帮助潜在的合作伙伴与这些人交谈?如果有人向你们公司要这些东西。对我们来说，这是一段有趣的旅程。我们现在有四个，还有一些可能正在路上。但我们的四个是赋权，这是针对女性的。我们有凶猛，是为LGBTQ+员工准备的。 We have Cvets, so a play in our name, but for our veterans and family members and then the Culture, which is for black employees. Now all these are groups that are open to all individuals. There is no restrictions on membership or anything like that. But we are looking now with some HR guidance at what the policy on closed meetings with you because it is important sometimes to have a space where just the community members can get together and discuss. But that should definitely be for more kind of tactical and not like social events or anything like that. But it depends because each of our groups were formed independently. We're very lucky. One of my good friends and the Fierce leadership board members is an inherent product or project manager. He lives in spreadsheets and dreams in spreadsheets, so we're able to get off the ground, organized very quickly, and tap a lot of the networks that we had to get some programming and some events on the way. And over time, as we kind of got onto our feet, we started to get reached out to more. So we do a large conference every year in the US and Europe for our users. And so, we started to push and ask and make ourselves available as a resource for getting more diverse content. So this year, I'll be moderating a panel on building diverse and inclusive event communities, everything from event planning to sourcing to attendees to venues. And even though my folks within my employee resource group is with the LGBTQ+ community going to be making sure that we take that opportunity to hit a lot of other things, like accessibility, ageism, and a lot of the other areas that are very prevalent but often ignored when it comes to kind of the hey, what do we tackle first when it comes to DEI? But I think one of the biggest things you need from a company to make those groups successful budget obviously should be the number one thing, and you can make up one, ask others, figure out what you'd like, but that's a great place to start. You're definitely going to need some sort of support, and it shouldn't be only on your shoulders. Fine to carry it for a little bit, but definitely start those conversations as quickly as you can.

菲尔·瓦格纳

好吧，这也许是一个插入问题的好地方。在这一点上，我已经意识到我们给那些经历过压迫或边缘化的人带来的负担。我觉得有时候我们会逼迫那些人寻求帮助。特别是，我不认为ERGs会这样做。但我认为如果你是一名黑人女性退伍军人，有一个女性伴侣，这可能会很复杂。就像有四个ERGs。你会加入这四家公司吗?这对你有什么影响，你是怎么决定的?我很好奇，当我们从交叉的角度来看，我们是如何被迫在这些相互竞争的身份之间做出选择的?你有什么见解吗?

内森的下巴

是的。实际上我还记得我的另一个观点，我也会把它写在这里。但至少对我们来说，我们的会员目前是非常被动的，我们正在努力解决这个问题，看看我们是否想要有不同层次的会员，以及这意味着什么。但至少,我想说有一个地方,任何人,不管他们是否有身份,可以很容易地找出发生了什么和至少一个旁观者讨论,因为知道家存在,有一个地方是伟大的,和你不希望有一个高门槛,如果我们有这个ERG和你会成为它的一部分,你必须每个月或每个季度参加这么多的会议，并达到这些最低承诺。我认为这对领导委员会或积极组织活动的人来说很好。你可以在那里设定一些标准，但它需要非常容易理解，因为就像你说的，有时你的工作把你拉到其他方向，你不能在这些方面花太多时间。所以你想让他们有一个可访问的社区，它需要是开放的，因为，特别是对于LGBT群体，我们不能像其他人那样容易地识别我们的一些成员。从人力资源的角度来看，你绝对不能问。你很快就会被解雇，所以我们得谨慎行事，但还是要做决定。 And that's where I definitely recommend if you are forming or looking at forming ERGs. Get one started if you have others. Get those individuals together to talk about what they want. Having uniformity across your ERG program at a company has so much benefit, so so much benefit, making sure that your membership standards are aligned, that you're communicating in similar ways, that you are cross-promoting events from each other because there's no reason, like women Empower and Cvets have been posting just as many of our events for Pride Month as we do for any of theirs because you'll need to have each other's back when it comes to the administrative things. Hopefully, you're not competing for budgets or anything like that, but you want to present a united front, and probably the one other thing I learned from LinkedIn Webinar that was one of the most useful insightful is as hard as it is, and as emotional these things are try to put some KPIs around it, or at least start collecting some data, say, hey, is there any sort of correlation between the membership in one of the employee resource groups or more than one and employee satisfaction or promotion rates or retention rates. There are so many all companies are doing engagement or poll surveys and some of these other things that we can use to get insight for employees. Marry that with this just basic membership data or activity. And then you can make a better case for an increased budget or for more organizational support when you can show, hey, people that are in one or more ERGs have this much points higher satisfaction in our last employee survey. Track that over time. Make your case. Emotion is a large part of it, but you definitely want to have some sort of actionable element that comes through a lot of that data.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的，我完全同意。我认为kpi是非常重要的，我认为在你的回答中有这样的平衡，Nathan，因为它不需要DEI工作，也不需要情感，因为这是它的一部分。正确的。但它也没有向其他方向发展，我认为我们看到的组织都是这样做的，就像全数据模式一样。比如，让我们收集所有的数据和所有的调查，只关注结果，而不是这些结果在长期内对我们有什么影响——有这么多奇妙的见解，我们应该讨论交叉性。当然，我们谈论的是kpi。我们说的是员工。我们已经说了很多了，但最后还有一个问题要问你，那就是交叉性，因为这是我们今天所有问题的中心主题。你已经看到了这些经历，不仅仅是作为一个领导者，也是作为工作世界的参与者。你可能会感受到支持。 You've likely felt a lack of support. So I'm curious. Going back to the theme of intersectionality, can you offer any insight to DEI-minded leaders and managers on how using an intersectional lens to this work in the workplace can make that work so much more valuable. Any thoughts or insights for us?

内森的下巴

好问题，至少对我个人来说，我知道我天生就有这种交叉镜头。我总是想到一句谚语，对别人来说可能会感到困惑，但聪明人知道自己有多少不知道。能够看到这些不同群体的点点滴滴，让我意识到我对其他人的经历有多少不了解，所以我们需要愿意为他们创造空间，让他们畅所欲言，讲述他们的故事，给我们意见或反应。从来没有一个人对多样性的所有不同方面都有如此惊人的观点。你可以检查一大堆不同的种族和受保护的群体。在我看来，这并没有完全覆盖到其他人。事实上，它给了你所有这些组合观点，这些观点与那些只生活在其中一个群体中的人非常不同。所以我认为另一件对我来说很重要的事情是当涉及到这个问题时，每个人都有很多不同的方面。你可能会特别关注一件事，比如，我们怎么做才能让我们的黑人员工给予更高的情绪评级或类似的事情?开始一项计划是很好的，但你需要后退一步，看看它将如何从许多其他方面或角度被感知。 I think a lot of initiatives or things that come up at work are kind of driven by that monolithic lens, or monolithic might not be the right word, but that singular lens that they're used to, they are used to. This is my primary identity, and I only have a primary identity. I don't really have these others, or I switch between. So a similar group would appreciate this in the same way and not realize that for a lot of us, there's a lot of different parts that might impact how we view that, not that's actually the way it works. But like one-quarter of me might find that totally fine or even great, and the other three quarters might be extremely offended or upset because it's going against those. So I think just keeping in mind how things are going to be perceived and not being upset if there is kind of any pushback or if there are things raised, I think it is on both sides. You need to raise things respectfully until they're not listened to and then, by all means, make some noise. But similarly, your best intent will never outweigh execution. It's always a combination of both. So be open and willing to listen to the viewpoints of others because they have ones that you don't and intent is good. But it can only take us so far. It can still ultimately be something that is racist or sexist or ageist or so many other negative impacts on people that it's important to just be open to those perspectives, seek them out if you can seek out different people, if you can, don't put it always on the same person, give them that emotional burden and just be open because there's so much more complexity to these issues into the world and to people. Then you tend to realize just by looking at them.

菲尔·瓦格纳

是的，我完全同意。认识到意图和影响是完全不同的两件事是非常重要的。所以要时刻保持警觉。但你的回答，内森，真的，我认为，给了我们一个很好的框架，来帮助解决我们在日常多样性、公平和包容工作中面临的一些问题。你是在告诉我们要避免孤立地做这项工作。你告诉我们，这一切都回到了社区，这一切都回到了开放，批评，有时对话，你告诉我们，我认为每个人都有空间，因为我们都是由许多不同的交叉身份变量组成的。这次谈话中有你的空间，我一直认为这是一个重要的提醒。也许不是每个空间都适合你。也许不是每个平台都适合你。但你有空间参与到这项工作中来，让职场成为一个更包容所有人的地方。 Nathan Chin, it's fantastic always to connect with an alum, but it's really fantastic to connect with alum who has such good food for thought like you've brought for us today. So I want you to know that we really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and being willing to chat with us here today.

内森的下巴

是啊，完全是我的荣幸。非常感谢。

菲尔·瓦格纳

感谢大家抽出时间收听《多样性发挥作用》。如果你喜欢你听到的，和朋友分享这个节目。在苹果播客或任何你听播客的地方给我们留下评论，并联系我们，因为我们一直在寻找新朋友。如果你想了解更多关于我们在威廉玛丽商学院的项目或计划。欢迎访问我们的网站www.simplesudz.com。下次见。